Doubt about Phenomenology and Results ¿?

The methods and techniques outlined in The Miracle of New Avatar Power by Geof Gray-Cobb

Topic author
Green
Neophyte
Posts: 6

Doubt about Phenomenology and Results ¿?

Post#1 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:59 pm

Hi everyone.

I'm beginning in the NAP system. I have been doing an invocation everyday (8 so far; 7 to win a legal action and 1 for success).. NO results yet

The ritual structure I use is:

1. LBRP
2. The NAP ritual
3.The Fountain Ritual ( Including the Middle Pillar Ritual, Circulation of the energy, the actual fountain ritual and the final invocation)
4. The relevant invocation I want to use
5. Dee Hay Thooth evocation
6. LBRP

The thing is that: I haven't experienced any perceptual effect (or phenomenological effect) nor emotional response to the ritual. (What I mean by " perceptual and phenomenological effects is the fact of: seeing, feeling, talking to an entity, having visions, hearing strange sounds, feeling energy trough my body, etc. ). Well, I have felt a bit of energy and a sensation of power during the first invocations. However, the sensations where weak, so I think they might have been just placebo. Basically I haven't feel anything relevant during the rituals.

- Am I Doing something wrong? Am I supposed to "feel" or "perceive" something? OR is normal than some people don't experience phenomenological effects at all?

- and most important!! the essence of my question: Would I get results even if I don't experience any of the effects mentioned before?? Or the phenomenological effects are relevant and closely related to the effectiveness of the ritual??

I hope I made myself clear and everyone understood

Greetings


tai
Adeptus Minor
Posts: 653

Re: Doubt about Phenomenology and Results ¿?

Post#2 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:56 pm

I don't think its important to experience effects to obtain results, but I do think such effects are a sign the NAP energies are "flooding to the surface".

Try the following:

1. Do a week of uncrossings to clear out any hidden blockages (the moon is in waning phase so good for this kind of work).
2. When you start working with specific invocations, stick the Chant For Success on at the end, with appropriately adapted wording. Do specific invocation + Chant For Success 3x per each run through.
3. Get rid of the LBRPs and always end with Coming Back From NAP (start doing LBRPs only if you experience unpleasant side effects - right now, you're gettting zero)

good luck,

tai


Topic author
Green
Neophyte
Posts: 6

Re: Doubt about Phenomenology and Results ¿?

Post#3 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:58 pm

tai wrote:I don't think its important to experience effects to obtain results, but I do think such effects are a sign the NAP energies are "flooding to the surface".

Try the following:

1. Do a week of uncrossings to clear out any hidden blockages (the moon is in waning phase so good for this kind of work).
2. When you start working with specific invocations, stick the Chant For Success on at the end, with appropriately adapted wording. Do specific invocation + Chant For Success 3x per each run through.
3. Get rid of the LBRPs and always end with Coming Back From NAP (start doing LBRPs only if you experience unpleasant side effects - right now, you're gettting zero)

good luck,

tai


Hi , thanks for answering. I'm glad to hear I can still get results... hope your right. However I would like to hear some other opinions.

I`ve actually been doing a total 4 uncrossing rituals per day ( also named, the qabalistic cross ritual, right?), as a part of the LBRP (two in each LBRP). Also, I do repeat the invocations 3 times and I usually do end with the "coming back" thing

I am following your advice of not doing the LBRP during the NAP rituals and about adding the success invocation -However, I will keep doing LBRP everyday (is kind of a habit to me) but just not during the NAP ritual-

So far no differences perceptive differences. And, concerning results, its too soon to tell


tai
Adeptus Minor
Posts: 653

Re: Doubt about Phenomenology and Results ¿?

Post#4 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:45 am

Green wrote:hope your right. However I would like to hear some other opinions.

The main thing is to get rid of your doubts - not because magick is faith-based, but because it undermines the ability to put 150% into the ritual. Magick occurs through connecting with True Will. Even when I receive bad Tarot readings after a ritual, I see it as an opportunity to overcome obstacles and refine efforts further. I've had results occur in under a minute after a ritual, other times it takes several months.
Green wrote:I am following your advice...about adding the success invocation

To give credit where its due, I first came across the advice to add the Chant for Success to a particular invocation on Brother Moloch's blog some time ago.

User avatar

Silenciumetaurum
Praeceptor
Praeceptor
Posts: 2740
Contact:

Re: Doubt about Phenomenology and Results ¿?

Post#5 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:42 am

Interesting thread.

NAP is simple on the surface but can be deceptively difficult at times. Consider that the invocations are not all from the same source and the spirits all have different natures and spheres of origin. This means that each chant / invocation is an individual thing and there is little synergy between them.*

For example, my work with the Chant for Success only showed results when I approached it in an open-ended way, not asking for particular outcomes. Success then began to manifest in various areas of my life. Contrast this with the Invocation for Money. Nitika always comes through for me directly and overtly, provided I really need the money and no greed in my heart. So it depends. Try feeling the sort of energy raised in the Attracting / Banishing ritual(s) and compare it to what you experience in the chants and invocations.


S+A

* The exception being Brother BB's composite rituals. His excellent blog has a lot of useful NAP and MG information: http://magicandsorcerythatworks.wordpress.com/
Aradia: Letters from the Dark Moon

If something is hard, do it more. Don't run away.

User avatar

mrblack
Adeptus Minor
Posts: 813
Contact:

Re: Doubt about Phenomenology and Results ¿?

Post#6 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:48 pm

Am I Doing something wrong? Am I supposed to "feel" or "perceive" something? OR is normal than some people don't experience phenomenological effects at all?

NAP, in it's most basic form, is sort of a petition system towards the achievement of your intent - a more potent version of it. It's not necessarily important that you feel or perceive anything - just get results. :)

and most important!! the essence of my question: Would I get results even if I don't experience any of the effects mentioned before?? Or the phenomenological effects are relevant and closely related to the effectiveness of the ritual??


You have to remember that when dealing with "angels", they follow their own set of rules and guidelines and that they don't have to actually do what you asked them, specially if it not part of their alignment. So if you're asking them to break the rules for you, then I doubt your petition is going to be successful. If it's aligned with their core, then they would do everything in their power to have it done for you. But like I said, there are no guarantees.....

In your case, the angel you've petitioned should be working on your case so I would assume it's doing it's thing on others that pertains to your case - so you shouldn't really feel magick being worked on you.

Silenciumetaurum wrote:For example, my work with the Chant for Success only showed results when I approached it in an open-ended way, not asking for particular outcomes. Success then began to manifest in various areas of my life. Contrast this with the Invocation for Money. Nitika always comes through for me directly and overtly, provided I really need the money and no greed in my heart. So it depends. Try feeling the sort of energy raised in the Attracting / Banishing ritual(s) and compare it to what you experience in the chants and invocations.


As the example above, I wouldn't add the "chant for success" till you've used this grimoire quite extensively.

Elubatel is not what I would call a "closer" of deals, as many of the other practitioners who've worked with him will tell (or have posted here), he feels like a mentor - who will do things to you that you might not perceive as good for you at the moment but you might need to get you moving up the ladder.

So in regards to your working, if he decided that you losing your case is what you need - then he will muck you up and your cause.

User avatar

Silenciumetaurum
Praeceptor
Praeceptor
Posts: 2740
Contact:

Re: Doubt about Phenomenology and Results ¿?

Post#7 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:39 am

mrblack wrote:You have to remember that when dealing with "angels", they follow their own set of rules and guidelines and that they don't have to actually do what you asked them, specially if it not part of their alignment. So if you're asking them to break the rules for you, then I doubt your petition is going to be successful. If it's aligned with their core, then they would do everything in their power to have it done for you. But like I said, there are no guarantees.....


I very much agree with this. I work with both demonic and angelic entities and have always gotten best results when I look to angels for insight and devils for practical results. In other words, angels seem to perceive and interact with the perfection of the way things are according to their spheres.

So in the past when I have evoked (I like Fio's method best, but I have also worked R.O.'s angelic grimoire to good effect and recommend both) and interacted with Haniel in order to help a client find love, the following has happened. Haniel is an Angel of Love, one of the Seven Teaching Angels, and that of Venus / Netzach. When he agreed to help, he modified the client's perceptions about herself and about the people to whom she was attracted in order to help her find love. It was illustrative. Haniel didn't mess with creation beyond that because he is an angel and thinks things are the way they should be. Michael has done the same with protection as has Raphael with healing. Just as Mr. Black says above:

If it's aligned with their core, then they would do everything in their power to have it done for you


I read, "their core," as their essence, their sphere, their function in creation--their "alignment," as Mr. Black puts it. But I think, because they are all about maintaining "the rules," they most often work illustratively when they do "everything in their power."

Contrast this with the evocation of Zepar, a powerful demon concerned with lust and "love." Because he is a demon, he is less concerned with perception than with action. He gets practical, physical results whether or not the client is pleased with them in the long run. In his case, it's a question of judgement (which, I suppose, comes down to perception in a different way): is she prepared to get what she's asking for? We all know this story. Someone calls up Zepar and asks for love work. He says sure and a deal is struck. Before long, the practitioner or client wakes up in bed beside a highly attractive person who may be (1) insane, (2) diseased, (3) obsessive, (4) constantly high, (5) broke-ass and always hungry, (6) possessed by Zuul, or have some other lingering, undesirable condition. If asked, Zepar would say, "Wait, you asked for a hottie and for romance / love. I delivered." His work is not primarily illustrative, it's material / operative. You have to use your own judgment. He's not interested in the tapestry of creation staying the way it is. Angels don't work like that.

I know it's not like this for everyone and I know this is an oversimplification. For example, there is a well known hoodoo spell that asks for three wishes and invokes St. Michael. I have a long explanation for how that works and for why it's an exception to the above paradigm. But for our purposes here, it's enough to note it as one procedure that does not fall into the illustrative / operative dichotomy.

So when we consider NAP, we need to understand that, yes, it is mainly a system of petitioning spirits. But, as noted, these spirits are not always linked with each other and the chants are individual operations that do not necessarily create magical synergy between them. Unlike the Grimorium Verum, NAP does not have an intermediary, operative "spirit of the book" or a gateway spirit like Scirlin. This means that Elubatel may decide not to work with someone until they've proven themselves through self-purification (which can be attained through some of the NAP workings) and he may not be impressed at all that Petahyah and Opiel have brought the practitioner results.

S+A
Aradia: Letters from the Dark Moon

If something is hard, do it more. Don't run away.

User avatar

Magick42
Philosophus
Posts: 353

Re: Doubt about Phenomenology and Results ¿?

Post#8 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:21 am

Silenciumetaurum wrote:
mrblack wrote:You have to remember that when dealing with "angels", they follow their own set of rules and guidelines and that they don't have to actually do what you asked them, specially if it not part of their alignment. So if you're asking them to break the rules for you, then I doubt your petition is going to be successful. If it's aligned with their core, then they would do everything in their power to have it done for you. But like I said, there are no guarantees.....


I very much agree with this. I work with both demonic and angelic entities and have always gotten best results when I look to angels for insight and devils for practical results. In other words, angels seem to perceive and interact with the perfection of the way things are according to their spheres.

So in the past when I have evoked (I like Fio's method best, but I have also worked R.O.'s angelic grimoire to good effect and recommend both) and interacted with Haniel in order to help a client find love, the following has happened. Haniel is an Angel of Love, one of the Seven Teaching Angels, and that of Venus / Netzach. When he agreed to help, he modified the client's perceptions about herself and about the people to whom she was attracted in order to help her find love. It was illustrative. Haniel didn't mess with creation beyond that because he is an angel and thinks things are the way they should be. Michael has done the same with protection as has Raphael with healing. Just as Mr. Black says above:

If it's aligned with their core, then they would do everything in their power to have it done for you


I read, "their core," as their essence, their sphere, their function in creation--their "alignment," as Mr. Black puts it. But I think, because they are all about maintaining "the rules," they most often work illustratively when they do "everything in their power."

Contrast this with the evocation of Zepar, a powerful demon concerned with lust and "love." Because he is a demon, he is less concerned with perception than with action. He gets practical, physical results whether or not the client is pleased with them in the long run. In his case, it's a question of judgement (which, I suppose, comes down to perception in a different way): is she prepared to get what she's asking for? We all know this story. Someone calls up Zepar and asks for love work. He says sure and a deal is struck. Before long, the practitioner or client wakes up in bed beside a highly attractive person who may be (1) insane, (2) diseased, (3) obsessive, (4) constantly high, (5) broke-ass and always hungry, (6) possessed by Zuul, or have some other lingering, undesirable condition. If asked, Zepar would say, "Wait, you asked for a hottie and for romance / love. I delivered." His work is not primarily illustrative, it's material / operative. You have to use your own judgment. He's not interested in the tapestry of creation staying the way it is. Angels don't work like that.

I know it's not like this for everyone and I know this is an oversimplification. For example, there is a well known hoodoo spell that asks for three wishes and invokes St. Michael. I have a long explanation for how that works and for why it's an exception to the above paradigm. But for our purposes here, it's enough to note it as one procedure that does not fall into the illustrative / operative dichotomy.

So when we consider NAP, we need to understand that, yes, it is mainly a system of petitioning spirits. But, as noted, these spirits are not always linked with each other and the chants are individual operations that do not necessarily create magical synergy between them. Unlike the Grimorium Verum, NAP does not have an intermediary, operative "spirit of the book" or a gateway spirit like Scirlin. This means that Elubatel may decide not to work with someone until they've proven themselves through self-purification (which can be attained through some of the NAP workings) and he may not be impressed at all that Petahyah and Opiel have brought the practitioner results.

S+A


You have explained this perfectly..kudos to that. What I mean is that when working with angels, it is either hit or miss, they will either work or not and this is, as you put it, according to their rules.

Which is the reason I work with them very little. Demons will get practical results, sometimes to the point where its TOO much. I know a magician who asked a devil for a real attractive gorgeous model- like woman and in three days that is exactly what he got...but it was a transvestite.

I could not stop laughing when he told me this because he knows better than to NOT be really specific in his wording when asking for something like that.

Long story short, alot of people get results with NAP and working with angels and that is good as the intent is in alignment with their sphere.

Myself, I stick with the demons for practical results, particularly the goetia ones.
Demons I can understand. People are crazy.


Topic author
Green
Neophyte
Posts: 6

Re: Doubt about Phenomenology and Results ¿?

Post#9 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:45 pm

Hi everyone, and thanks for answering

I've read everything you have written in this thread (I also read the links Silenciumetaurum recommended) and It has helped me a lot. Not only because you answered all my questions, but also because now I understand a lot better the NAP system.

I think my confusion is due to the lack of concrete information in the book.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests