monsnoleedra wrote:I find for me when I am dealing with things I try to place source items in time sequence. When I first started I used to go by quotes and generic references. But now I try to place things in as near a time sequence as I can to see how they relate to often cited reference "quotes".
Have to make a new one but I used to have a time line that dealt with Hekate and when various poems, stories, authors, poets, etc were active. Then when I saw things I though were important as influences or events I'd place them on the timeline as well as quick reference notes. Nothing fancy just things to remind me who, what, when, where.
Have to admit I'm a bit of an analyst though an my degree is in history. Just makes sense to me to do stuff like that.
I don't have a degree in History, but I try to follow the same line of thinking. If I can discern what the nexus around a point of contention was in history, I research both that primary source and those who appear to be influenced by that primary source. I recognize that i'll probably still walk away with something less than a full understanding of what was done, but this still provides me with the opportunity to get closer in my understanding.
From there, I let the spirits and their gnosis (alongside UPG and inspiration) instruct me in what I'm doing, how I'm doing it, and then I further deduce from there.
monsnoleedra wrote:Jade Sol Luna's take on Hekate is very much influenced by an Eastern (Kali Ma) slant. There's a lot of Hellene presence but also a lot of his own Eastern influence as well. I read both of his books (there's also a CD). I honestly don't recall it influencing me to much but he does offer some interesting perspective on her. Their not bad books and by far not the worst I've read dealing with Hekate but I wouldn't put them at the top of my list.
Thank you. From what you'd described, he appeared to be staring at the Hekate material available to him and squinting a fair bit. Nothing wrong with doing so, but that kind of information is always a bit "out there".
monsnoleedra wrote:I honestly think most of the conflict is derived due to the Wiccan presence and influence of the contrasting ideals. Figure the idea of "Harm None, Do As Thou Will" tends to be very much in conflict to the Asatru / Odinist ideals of Battle, Shield Maidens, chosen on the field of Battle by the Valkrie. You might say the Pagan movement still held a lot of it's Hippie / Feminist influences of the 60's & 70's where the Heathen movement was not specifically founded from the fertile field.
Even putting aside the idea that the Odinist movement held lots of racial purity influences and Asatru incorporated some of that. The typical structure of a heathenist grouping with its blots and such was pretty different than your typical coven. That not even taking into consideration the idea of a "Cowan"
Factor in what was occurring regarding the breaking down of the closed lineaged groups on the pagan side during the late 80's early 90's and you had even more divides. It was bad enough on the Pagan side with BTW (British Traditional Wicca) which required initiation and lineage vs all the new self taught, self initiated, self dedicated stuff appearing with the 101 books appearing.
That wasn't even touching the divide that was going on between the Pagan & occult (sorcery) ie ceremonial / high magics grouping at the time.
Well stated and it easily could be that the fringe concepts of each "path" had it out with one another, with accusations of racism and upset at more peace-focused ideologies causing conflicts along the way. On some level, there's been a desire for control over the narrative in the case of organized religion, and new age thought/neopaganism is far from immune to this. This essentially carries forward some of the anti-Crowleyan biases from the Victorian era and just applies it towards more groups, all under the banner of one side being "more right" than the other. This sounds rather more like jealousy than any kind of historical difference.
monsnoleedra wrote:My personal opinion is I think this period is another reason you see things like Hekate's Wheel appear. It brings in a form of Sorcery that really was not part of many pagan /witchy practices prior to this. I personally do not recall sigils, ceremonial & high magical stuff in many witchy books to much back then. It's only after authors try to add more and more stuff to the mix that you start to see that stuff appear.
Could be. There are, however, many svartboka (black books) that have been found with sigils and signs within them. In addition, paleolithic cave paintings do, too, have their own sigils and elements of ritual imagery present in them (see Jan Fries' Helrunar, for instance). It seems that sigils have become something of a buzzword in recent magical texts, however, perhaps as a means of conceptualizing power into a glyph that can more easily be tapped along the lines of what chaos magicians have been doing since the 80s.
I wonder if this could be an instance of cultural diffusion amongst the magical community, since on some level we're all somewhat power-hungry and fascinated by what the spirit world can achieve. Seeing the results of another path can often inspire us to try to find the same common ground within our own.
monsnoleedra wrote:Not sure she is the true north as much as the "Herme" type figure at the crossroads. The three face / masks that you look upon and each mask / face reveals a differing gaze. Yet what does each gaze reveal as the light and shadows play across it's image as you look upon it and move about it's angle of view?
A fair point, at that. This brings to mind the thought that perhaps the light's influence on the image (and, in turn, the shadow's influence) could be a part of the magic and invocational process. I tend to view light and darkness as being elements unto themselves, separate from the age old standards, so this would make sense within the context of my understanding of those elements.
Its something I need to unpack further, at any rate, as its clear there's some manner of lesson or teaching here that could be utilized elsewhere.
monsnoleedra wrote:Ah, ok I see what you saying now.
Sweet. I'm glad that makes some sense now.
monsnoleedra wrote:Just speculation on my part but given all the various "Seals" that were found there it seems more likely they are simply potters marks. If not potters marks then simple designs more so than equated to specific divinities.
If for arguments / discussion lets say it is a ijnx. Then it's a magical emblem used by a number of goddess, usually for love for instance. So it would be a common motif symbol or series of symbols. Now if you place these symbols on a container that is used for say shipping wine or spirits that is used for certain types of public rituals or ceremonies and you wanted to be able to easily show the contents of said containers. You put the seal on the container. We do it today on all our products. Why would the ancients be any different?
It doesn't make much sense for a product to be produced for a temple / sanctuary / shrine at some distance then shipped to the place unless it is either a unique product or some sort of building product. Figure at the ruins of most of your temples / shrines / sanctuaries you find the remains of artisans workshops that produced them for the site. At larger sites even cities grow up around the complexes. Not to say its impossible but seems unlikely.
I see what you're saying, and that's essentially what I'm getting at here. Call it "branding", but its branding that's related to a specific deity or power or influence rather than Pfizer or Walmart. Anyhow, with respect to the creation of trade goods and transporting them, I think it actually makes more sense than you might initially think.
For instance, look at the creation of weapons throughout history. One of the things that made early Arabs so profoundly powerful within their locale was their ability to create steel that was sharp, resilient, and strong. Wootz steel is STILL legendary to this day, as there was a protected process involved in its creation that created impressive enough weapons that they were and are sought after even today. This is likely directly correlated to the kind of material being used to create it, as not all iron is created equal.
We can see this in Japan, for instance. Samurai swords are not at all superior to others, but they required additional ornamentation and process in order to actually be made into something worthwhile. This is directly related to what was locally available, as in Japan iron deposits are hard to come by. What they had access to was iron sand that had to be melted down in a crucible and then broken apart by a smith who would then choose ingots for the edge and ingots for the sidewalls of the katana. This became an art because the iron itself is really rather crappy in nature...its nowhere near as strong as iron found in Britain without this kind of to-do behind it.
We see a parallel to this between the early Gauls and Rome. The Romans were scared as hell of them because they had the ability to make iron swords at a point in time where Rome only had access to bronze weapons. A well-made iron sword can plow directly through an equally well-made bronze equivalent, so the Romans were essentially better trained but poorly armed by comparison, and as a result they were consistently smoshed by the local "barbarians". This persisted until a greedy/stupid Gaulish smith shared the methodology for making iron weapons and tools with the Romans, which then empowered them to expand even further than they had before.
Had this occured through the trading of such weapons instead, you can be fairly certain that the Romans would have given the Gauls just about anything in order to get access to what was a wondersteel of a kind in that day and age. Now, I get that this is a little bit of a leap, but what if pottery was the same way? I know a tad about it, and as with glassblowing, some materials are vastly better than others for the creation of jars and pots. If you didn't have local access to the kind of materials necessary in order to make these super sturdy, gorgeous vessels, you'd either have to make do without it or find a way to trade for it.
If these vessels were traded for instead, it would make PERFECT sense for them to be factory-produced and shipped. We do the same thing in our day to day lives as it is, and there's not a whole lot of evidence (as far as I am aware) that this didn't occur with our ancestors too. That's my line of thought, anyway.
monsnoleedra wrote:One of the things that has sort of spun around in the back of my head with this Hekate's Wheel has actual tied into the idea of the Venus Flower. Not sure if you've ever looked at it but it's the heavenly flower shape that the planet Venus makes as it revolves about the sun.tumblr_mn65hg5OgG1s8183so1_1280.jpg
Presuming that Hekate's Wheel is actually something that is marking movements and is showing motion then where is that motion at? Logically that motion should be in the heavens. But what is the cyclic pattern to what ever is being charted?
I can't say I've ever seen this before, but that is fascinating on so many levels...food for thought indeed, as I got to thinking about what the benefit of a wheel/wheel-like-item that's described as being a Strophalos would provide. If its a bolo, then it provides motion as a kind of empowerment for the ritual itself, not unlike swinging a censer full of fragrant fumigents.
If, however, its a fire receptacle that's spun as a means of creating shadows on the wall, then its the dance of those shadows upon the wall that is sacred and significant. This, to me, would suggest that it wasn't the flame itself that was thought of as important in this context, but rather the shadows created instead, framing Hekate differently. I don't yet know where I'm going with this, but there's something about this idea that's a bit of an earwig for me.